Sailing Mechanincs?

[Reto Häner]

Based on the video posted a while back, the sailboat in 1.20 will function basically like a motorboat: W to go forward, S to go backwards, etc.

I think the Joy of Sailing mod has shown that simple sailing mechanics would be a much better option, giving the player at least something to do while sailing, such as trimming the sails to get as much speed as possible, and tacking if you're going against the wind. If we assume that there'll still be no autorun without mods, then they're less annoying too, because you wouldn't have to hold W the whole time.

When we compare sailing to riding from a mechanical perspective, I think sailing needs to function a fair bit differently in order to keep it fun and interesting. When riding a mount, you still have additional things going on like terrain to navigate, enemies to avoid/fight, etc. If you're in the open ocean, you need something more to do than just hold forward, otherwise there's practically no gameplay.

I don't know how far it would be sensible to go in terms of adding depth to the sailing mechanics, both in terms of gameplay and the engine side. For example, should it be possible to capsize in strong winds if you don't manage the sails right, or would that be too punishing? What about waves, is there a feasible way to add large waves in a game like this? Would that even be fun for most players? I'd enjoy such things, but I'm not sure if I represent the average player. I think simple sailing mechanics would be a good place to start, and a good compromise for the base game.

Edited August 13 by Reto Häner

[LadyWYT]

1 hour ago, Reto Häner said:

Based on the video posted a while back, the sailboat in 1.20 will function basically like a motorboat: W to go forward, S to go backwards, etc.

I think the Joy of Sailing mod has shown that simple sailing mechanics would be a much better option, giving the player at least something to do while sailing, such as trimming the sails to get as much speed as possible, and tacking if you're going against the wind. If we assume that there'll still be no autorun without mods, then they're less annoying too, because you wouldn't have to hold W the whole time.

What about having both options available? That way you can sail without constantly holding W, which would be great for long distances and looking around without changing direction. The other mode(hold W to move forward) would be more useful for fine-tuning the boat's movement.

1 hour ago, Reto Häner said:

I don't know how far it would be sensible to go in terms of adding depth to the sailing mechanics, both in terms of gameplay and the engine side. For example, should it be possible to capsize in strong winds if you don't manage the sails right, or would that be too punishing? What about waves, is there a feasible way to add large waves in a game like this? Would that even be fun for most players? I'd enjoy such things, but I'm not sure if I represent the average player. I think simple sailing mechanics would be a good place to start, and a good compromise for the base game.

Sounds a lot like how Valheim handles sailing. I think a similar system would be interesting for Vintage Story and fit well with the other challenges the game offers, however, it's also not something I would overcomplicate. I'd say let wind direction make a difference in how fast the player sails, with additional speed control being added by how much sail you have open. To go at full speed, you'd need to go full sail with wind direction, which should be fairly intuitive. To slow down, you need less sail, and of course sailing into the wind will slow you down as well.

In regards to capsizing...this should probably be an option in the world settings to begin with, on whether boats can be capsized. That way players who don't want to deal with that hazard potential can avoid it entirely. Otherwise, I would say make the boat capsize after taking enough of a beating. Going too fast in rough water? The loud creaking of wood under strain should warn the player to slow down lest they risk the boat breaking apart. Impatient to get to land and intent on ramming the boat onto the beach at full speed? That's fine, but now you've ripped a huge hole in the bottom that you'll need to fix before it'll be a seaworthy vessel again.

I think both of those mechanics would probably be interesting enough to engage players without frustrating them. They'd also be easy enough to add an option for, so that the players who really don't like it can turn it off, similar to the option for cave-ins.

[StCatharines]

5 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

I think both of those mechanics would probably be interesting enough to engage players without frustrating them. They'd also be easy enough to add an option for, so that the players who really don't like it can turn it off, similar to the option for cave-ins.

Agreed, wholeheartedly! The more customization for things like this, the better each player can tailor the experience to their personal desires.

[Thorfinn]

11 hours ago, Reto Häner said:

If you're in the open ocean, you need something more to do than just hold forward, otherwise there's practically no gameplay.

Right! We need kraken and sea serpents and giant squids. Make the oceans interesting.

[EDIT]

To be fair, I have never tried Joy of Sailing. From what I've heard, it's pretty good, for those who like that kind of thing. To me, taking a knife  and cutting a few inches off your sails (or whatever "trimming the sails" means) sounds about as exciting as watching the food in your cellar go bad.

[/EDIT]

Edited August 13 by Thorfinn

[Thorfinn]

9 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

To go at full speed, you'd need to go full sail with wind direction

You should be able to go faster than wind speed, depending on whether you can use the Bernoulli effect. With the right direction, you can get going over twice the windspeed.

Yeah, I can do the math and the engineering. It just doesn't seem like it would be as much fun in a game as it is IRL.

[LadyWYT]

1 minute ago, Thorfinn said:

It just doesn't seem like it would be as much fun in a game as it is IRL.

That could probably be said of a lot of things, really. Of course, the opposite is true in some cases as well, and one of the reasons that videogame logic exists.

[ifoz]

On 8/13/2024 at 11:20 PM, LadyWYT said:

What about having both options available? That way you can sail without constantly holding W, which would be great for long distances and looking around without changing direction. The other mode(hold W to move forward) would be more useful for fine-tuning the boat's movement.

I could see this being implemented! Considering the elk have different types of bridle to allow for different control schemes, perhaps we could have different types of sails to allow for the "motorboat" controls and then another type for some more wind-based controls?
Perhaps the wind sails go faster (if wind is strong) and do not need you to be holding W, but the motorboat sails are more reliable (since they can still sail in weak winds) but they require you to hold W.

Edited August 16 by ifoz

[Dra6o0n]

Combination of Sails and Oars, with the sail boat based on what type it is and if multiple players are around. So like Valheim but more control over rowing of the boat when there is no wind.

If players are riding the boat and seated where the oars are at, they will automatically row it on command from the player controlling the ship.

But at minimum the player controlling the ship contributes a small portion to rowing power, if there is no wind to sail with.

With the use of gears for bigger ships, you can have hand or feet cranked gears to turn a propeller below the ship's rear, for a small speed.

Edited August 17 by Dra6o0n

[DDiego]

Considering the game can create 8 mil maps, ships that act like little floating bases would be kinda neat.

Then getting attacked by npcs that pop a hole in your ship which then sinks your ship.

[Reto Häner]

People here are acting like even the most basic sailing mechanics require a rocket science degree or something. In JoS you adjust the sail with just two keys, it's as simple as looking at the wind angle and pressing W or S until your sail is at a good angle. Sailing mechanics can get a lot more complex and engaging than that of course, but at their most basic they're less work than conventional WASD controls, except if you have to go straight upwind.

On 8/18/2024 at 6:30 PM, DDiego said:

Considering the game can create 8 mil maps, ships that act like little floating bases would be kinda neat.

Then getting attacked by npcs that pop a hole in your ship which then sinks your ship.

Mobile bases are the logical end-point of multi-block vehicles, but not something that should be in the vanilla game IMO. As a mod though? Absolutely.

Edited August 22 by Reto Häner

[Maelstrom]

2 hours ago, Reto Häner said:

People here are acting like even the most basic sailing mechanics require a rocket science degree or something.

The coding is what concerns me.  The two different mechanics require Tyron to make 2 sets of code, which would take time from other things getting implemented.  I'll be happy with what he decides this go 'round and trust that he'll de-jank it in a future round of de-janking.

[Thorfinn]

3 hours ago, Reto Häner said:

...except if you have to go straight upwind.

And at the moment, the wind always blows the same direction.

Like I said, I have not tried JoS, nor looked at the code, but I'm with @Maelstrom. The math behind airfoils is fiendishly difficult. The most basic stuff is "just" second-order differential equations. Thus why it took so long to figure out faster-than-wind movement, other than hit and miss experimentation.

Not to say the sailing mechanic must be realistic, but it kind of loses the point if it's just a different unrealistic system.

[idiomcritter]

speaking of mechanics... would be nice to have sea/sailing shanty while underway.... just sayn

[Maelstrom]

1 hour ago, Thorfinn said:

And at the moment, the wind always blows the same direction.

Like I said, I have not tried JoS, nor looked at the code, but I'm with @Maelstrom. The math behind airfoils is fiendishly difficult. The most basic stuff is "just" second-order differential equations. Thus why it took so long to figure out faster-than-wind movement, other than hit and miss experimentation.

Not to say the sailing mechanic must be realistic, but it kind of loses the point if it's just a different unrealistic system.

I wasn't even thinking of the realism of it, just coding a simple sailing mechanic versus a semi-realistic one.  Should Tyron implement a more realistic mechanic I'm sure he would come up with a simple semi-realistic calculation to approximate realistic sailing.  And then we'd get complaints from real sailors how wrong it is.  

[Thorfinn]

OK. I was just thinking that since we still have just the one wind direction, and it makes no difference at all to windmill performance, even a quasi-realistic sailing system is not just on the back burner, but on the stove over at the Johnson's. 

[RedVanGhoul]

On 8/13/2024 at 6:52 PM, Thorfinn said:

Right! We need kraken and sea serpents and giant squids. Make the oceans interesting.

[EDIT]

To be fair, I have never tried Joy of Sailing. From what I've heard, it's pretty good, for those who like that kind of thing. To me, taking a knife  and cutting a few inches off your sails (or whatever "trimming the sails" means) sounds about as exciting as watching the food in your cellar go bad.

[/EDIT]

Trimming sails just means adjusting the sails to catch the wind correctly. It usually involves tightening them when sailing upwind so you get an airfoil.

I sail a bit IRL. Don't cut the sails. They are kinda expensive.

[Thorfinn]

 

[Thorfinn]

On 8/13/2024 at 6:18 PM, Thorfinn said:

It just doesn't seem like it would be as much fun in a game as it is IRL.

On 8/13/2024 at 6:21 PM, LadyWYT said:

That could probably be said of a lot of things, really.  

No idea why that didn't get more laughs. My daughter thought your comment was funny as heck.